An Unconventional Beauty
There’s been a mini-conversation going on in one of the comments sections around here, revolving in part around the idea of “unconventional beauty.” Well, that and how clueless men are, but that’s almost always part of the conversation here. Especially when I’m around. I don’t know why that is, but I’ll figure it out eventually.
It’s pretty clear that people have a skewed idea of beauty. I suppose there’s certainly the lizard-brain thing, the genetic predisposition for finding certain physical features more attractive than others in a viable-for-procreation way; although any person going solely by that standard is probably not the kind of person you want to meet in a bar. Then, there’s symmetry, and the fashion world, Barbie and Ken and likenesses to celebrities, etc. But what happens when you don’t fit into any of those groups, or not enough of them? Aside from getting smaller film roles, you’re labeled “unconventional.” That’s latin for “not conventional.”
This is where the other 99% of the world comes in, because trust me, almost everyone’s unconventional. Including Keira Knightly, who is still doing that thing with her lips.
With this topic in mind, I spent some time this morning writing a long post. Then I stopped, re-read everything, and determined that not only did I not really know what I was talking about, but I actually disagreed with some of the things that I wrote. I even wrote myself a nasty email telling myself so. It’s quite amazing to be able to hold two totally opposing viewpoints in your head at the same time; I can’t even tell which view is the apologetic one.
So, I’ll need some help writing this very post, because I’m a little lost.
I think that most people would like to be conventionally pretty. Other people are just happy to be exactly as ‘unconventional’ as they are, and then there’s the random straggler that ends up looking like this. I think a lot of people would say that that’s weird, but shouldn’t even that be considered an unconventional beauty, in its own strange, odd way? Granted, most people fall someplace in the middle between Michelle Pfeiffer and the Cat Woman, but still. Our ideals are formed by a lot of influences, including our lizard-brains and cultural preferences — so what ideals should we be going by? Or should we chuck it all for standards of personality?
As someone that’s seen many an episode of “Dr. 90210,” I’ve watched a lot of people go in for plastic surgery that didn’t need it. On the other hand, some of them came out looking better (in my opinion), and they were clearly much happier — is there anything wrong with that? I’ve heard people call those that get plastic surgery “weak,” but is it really all that different than putting on makeup or dressing a certain way? What about tattoos and piercings and other body modifications?
I think I have too many opposing views to write this one by myself. As a guy, I have to admit that yes, I find actresses and supermodels attractive. On the other hand, the list of supermodels that are waiting to see me is so long that sleeping with them all is getting downright tedious, and I just really wish at least one of them would discuss Nietszche or comic books with me. Oh, well. I might as well get my soul’s worth before I enter an eternity of pain and suffering.
So tell me: what’s up with unconventional beauty?
Okay, seriously? That picture of Jocelyn Wildenstein made me scream out loud. That is one scary mo-fo.
You make a good point about the lack of difference between getting plastic surgery and wearing makeup. I guess for me, it’s just a matter of working with what you have and having someone slice you open to adjust you. And if it makes you feel better about yourself – great…but post-surgery, aren’t you just feeling better about yourself because you know you’ll better fit society’s ideal of beauty? I don’t think people were having brow lifts back in the 1800′s – because that wasn’t important to people then! Whatever. To each their own!
I agree with Liberal Banana. I don’t think plastic surgery is wrong, but it’s not for me. And I think it is not much different than getting a body mod, because you are undergoing a procedure to make your body more like what you want it to be.
So, as a tattoo-sporting, make-up wearing female, I guess I’m not much different than someone who pays a lot of money to sculpt their nose. But I still can’t forsee myself getting plastic surgery because I think I should be happy with myself the way I am, and I wish other people would be, too. But if I’m planning future tattoos and spending my money at Sephora, am I really being happy with myself the way I am? I can’t explain it, and I’m feeling as lost as you are, Retro!
Well, I think it’s getting to a point where “working with what you have” could mean a lot more. I mean, hell, it’s a lot easier and more accepted to have work done on your body these days; it’s an option for some (SOME) people that’s as easy as anything else.
And probably, yes, at the end of the day post-surgery, people will feel like they fit in better with society’s ideals; but other people, like Ms. Wildenstein and that CAT GUY, have totally gone the other way to recreate themselves as they see beauty. Personal ideals are sometimes in line with society, and sometimes not. I don’t think I necessarily have to disagree with society in order to have personal ideals.
I don’t think I really have a point here. Just playing Devil’s advocate.
First off, I cannot describe how I felt when I saw the title of this blog! (Tingly. There — I described it.) I have been saying this for years, consistently: what women want is attention. True attention on what we want, what we say, and who we are. Based on my reaction (the Tingly), I now can’t think of a pickup line any hotter than This has been a really interesting conversation. I think you’ve inspired me to write a blog.
Second, I am not as concerned with what is conventional beauty, but with how beauty is positioned. I’ve written a lot (mostly from the viewpoint of weight issues, ’cause that’s my bag) about this. I piss off the fat activists because I’m happier since my weight loss surgery (that is an oversimplification, but too bad). It comes down to this for me… I am not angry (enough for said activists) at people who don’t want me because I don’t match their visual ideals. People want who they want; if you don’t get me as beautiful, Move On. BUT I also don’t accept that ‘unconventional beauty’ (see, eventually I got around to it) is synonymous with ‘less than beautiful’. And if you smell like that is YOUR viewpoint, and like you and I should get together because we can’t do any better, then Move On twice as fast!
(I don’t know how to hyperlink in a comment, but if you want to check out a great bitchfight between me and a fat activist, check out my bloggle called trying to decide if I am ambivalent; can I get a ‘hell yea!’
Thanks Ret, you made my day.
Just doin’ m’job, ma’am.
Rock on, sistah.
(???)
I understand that men don’t feel this way, but for me looks really aren’t all that important in a relationship. There are definitely physical things I’m attracted to on a “checking people out on the street” way. But when I date someone, I can only see them as their personality, so even if they look like Geroge Clooney, if they’re an asshole, they’re going to seem ugly to me. Conversely, if they’re not conventionally attractive but wonderful, then they’ll look like Geroge Clooney to me. I can’t seperate it.
I agree with Roberta, the last thing I want is a guy who is willing “to settle” for me.My situation is a little different from hers in the respect that I’m a runner, so if a guy comes over and starts talking about what great shape I’m in, I usually lose interest. Now, if he comes over and tells me how funny he thinks I am, then I’m interested.
Great post again, by the way.
A friend and I were working on a rating system for looks within which we would assign a time period for how long it would take to notice that the person actual sucked or was crazy or something.
Clooney, for example. It’s not just looks of course, but style and voice and everything. I feel like it would take me two full years before I’d even notice he was gay. Ewan McGregor is dazzling, but only like 15 months and I’d get sick of the mood swings. For my friend it was six months = Jessica Alba.
And Tara, yeah, I get it about the runner thing. I have a friend who is so sexy and beautiful… like Natalie Portman in the final moments of Closer, people turn and stare at her on the streets of Manhattan.
I said to her once, As a fat girl, you find out quickly who the misogynists are. She said, As a pretty girl, you find out just as quickly.
True dat.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with plastic surgery as long as it’s not done to extremes, as with anything else. I guess it’s hard to define what’s “extreme”, but let’s just say that respectable rhinoplasty shouldn’t be condemned, and Michael Jackson looks strange.
Wait, what’s wrong with Michael Jackson?
I never said I was a pretty girl. But I think there seem to be 2 schools of shallow guys – those that seem way more concerned with body types and those that are more concerned with faces. Okay, I guess there are 3 – those that have to have a beautiful face and a perfect body.
Yeah, but Ewan McGregor’s mood swings would be so cute don’t you think?
Plastic surgery can be deadly – I guess that’s my big concern with it. Plus I like people with interesting faces. Look what happened to Jennifer Grey after she had a nose job – Jennifer who? She looks like everyone else now and that’s boring.
Maybe I’m completely off with this but the whole idea of unconventional beauty is that the owner of this ‘beauty’ realizes it and the idea of changing it – isn’t really an option. Speaking as someone who considers themselves as unconventional… Our (is it right to say ‘our?’) beauty isn’t noticed at first – like the girl in high school who no one thought was pretty until she put a dress on. To me it’s the girl that isn’t so pretty, but when you get to know her -really know her- her beauty grows and grows and grows… Am I saying that unconventional beauty is more than skin deep? YES! (Also keep in mind that I’m sure that if some of my friends were to read this they would tell me I’m crazy and that sometimes it’s much better if I don’t open my mouth to talk…) All I’m really saying is that approach the girl you normally wouldn’t talk to. Step outside of that ‘standard beauty.’ If I hear ‘Meh’ after someone says, ‘what about her, she’s cute!’ I’m going to have a HUGE complex.
So what role does physical beauty play in attraction? Or, rather, what role should it play?
It plays some roll but not all. Have you seen the boy I dated in college? He looked like a small gorilla. But you know what? He was MY gorilla and I loved him for it.
Physical beauty definitely plays a part for me…see my picture post of “guys I think are hot” from about a month or so ago. But also within that post, you will see a couple of guys who aren’t conventionally pretty – Christopher Eccleston (Doctor Who) with his large nose and teapot ears certainly isn’t. But his eyes, his smile, and his charisma make those “flaws” fade away in my eyes. I can’t see myself ever thinking Lyle Lovett is handsome, but I appreciate that Julia Roberts once saw something in him. Conventional beauty might lure you in, but it’s the personality behind it that makes you stick (or not stick) with a person.
Rick is extremely handsome, but I’m still with him four years later because he makes me laugh and makes me think. I see him for who he is rather than the handsome face that others see.
Not at all related to Rick: Keira Knightley is hot. I would so do her…especially love the little tongue between the teeth thing she does when she smiles. :)
I personally DO prefer unconventional beauty. Like a funky nose or slightly crossed eyes. Because otherwise they all look alike. Really, can you tell Julia Stiles from Reese Witherspoon, if you have only a 1/2 sec of each? Yeah, thought not. But Minnie Driver is the only Minnie. Something just has to break the symmetry for me, otherwise it’s not “beauty,” it’s just a nice face.
I give Antonio 18 months before I start correcting his pronunciation. Ewan Macgregor gets a weekend. Russell Crowe’s mood swings, otoh, get a full 9 months.
Ewan McGregor = cute mood swings.
Can’t argue with that.
Let’s not forget that ‘conventional beauty’ is entirely cultural. (I believe I am preaching to the choir, but preach I will, and sing we will.) My mom always talks about a ‘classic Jewish beauty’. Jennifer Grey might find herself getting more attention in a bar than she used to, but as the character we knew and loved… she is history.
(My mom also had the wherewithal to insist, at the age of 17 (so around 1956) when getting a nose job to ONLY have the bump removed, but not touch the rest of the size, shape, or design. She retained her ethnicity, and its accompanying beauty.
Michael Jackson = uncute mood swings
Dustin Hoffman on Actor’s Studio last night = thank the gods he never touched that nose
Ret, I think your most recent question is key. What does the role of physical attraction play vs what should it play.
Look, hot is hot. Culturally guided from our wee-ist years, but instilled/installed, and pretty potent stuff, nonetheless. We all have our jones’s. I don’t know a guy in my age range who doesn’t have a twitch for leather-clad, a la Julie Newmar.
It’s funny, Julie’s comment – for no apparent reason I was contemplating Lyle Lovett the other day. I’d do him. Charisma, talent, and yes, an interesting face, overshadows looks very quickly.
But also character – beyond being a character, overshadows looks.
I try not to judge people, but I think it’s a maturity thing – I have encountered too many men who will simply not allow character to overshadow looks. I try not to judge these guys as shallow, misogynistic, immature, unrealistic, narcissistic, or just stupid.
I really do try.
It is a feminist issue. In our culture there are a whole lot more ‘ugly hot’ men than women. Mick Jagger, Rod Stewart, Stephen Tyler… the list is long. Who are the women? They do creep in, but they pay for it. The press is evil to a Barbara Streisand or Meryl Streep, especially as their careers were on the rise.
Feminist issue. If a man as pretty as Julia Roberts had married a woman as ugly as Lyle Lovett, the press would have had an entirely different spin on it. Being an ugly woman isn’t a fluke, but a sin.
For me, personality will either enhance or detract from beauty. And plastic surgery isn’t likely to help personality. I don’t find “vanity” that endearing. Heather feels that her nose is too large, however I think it’s perfect. I couldn’t imagine her with a small nose, and I really wouldn’t like it to be changed. Luckily, she doesn’t seem to want to.
Actually, I can tell Julia Stiles from Reese Witherspoon. Although I might argue that they are two pretty unconventional-looking women for Hollywood.
That’s always an argument I’ve found pretty contestable, though: that conventionally attractive people all look alike. There’s a lot of different popular conventions.
Okay. Retropolitan, you have opened a can of worms here. A big one.
Please, please, please go out and read The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf. And until you can get your hands on that, go read this: http://homestar.org/bryannan/wolf.html
As much as I applaud The Retropolitan for attracting such a following on his blog, I’m concerned by all of this …
The problem, I think, with focusing so much on beauty (other than what Wolf says) is that you are looking for external ways to fix something that isn’t quite right inside yourself. Yes, we live in a world where first impressions matter and people are likely to be nicer to you if you are attractive. But I don’t think envying the attractive or trying to make ourselves moreso is the answer. Work with what you’ve got, yes — maintaining your appearance and doing nice pampering things for yourself shows self-esteem and confidence. And isn’t that the secret, really? I mean, yeah, studies have been done that show what people find attractive sexually, and those are mainly for reproductive reasons … but most of the time, women and men bypass this stuff for pheromones and confidence. You know, that certain “je ne sais quoi?” If you’ve got it, you’ve got it … and it has nothing to do with obsessing over looks.
My best friend, by most standards is overweight, but she is also extremely confident and fun to be with and doesn’t focus much on looks … therefore men are usually incredibly drawn to her.
Men aren’t stupid … at a certain age, they might be attracted to a certain kind of girl … but just like us women, they can detect confidence levels … there must be some reason that asking my boyfriend if I look fat annoys him more than gives me the result of more attention that I was hoping for.
And why do I ask him that in the first place?
Read The Beauty Myth.
I’m surprised it went on even this long before “The Beauty Myth” came up.
I should probably investigate what The Beauty Myth is all about before commenting, but here I go.
I go for unconventional looks, myself. I think Steve Valentine has it all over Brad Pitt. Not that either one of them will date me, but you know. And I always wondered, what did Lyle Lovett see in Julia Roberts? I mean, that guy is beautiful! And she’s… just another girl. David Bowie is gorgeous, yes, even at his age. I never thought much of LeoDeCaprio, but I’ve had a thing for Tommy Lee Jones for years. Will Smith is cute, though. Is he conventional looking?
Anyway, I’ve long been a believer that beauty shines from the inside, no matter what your physical attributes are or are not. You’ve seen them- the people who everybody gravitates to, and then you look at their features, and they ain’t all that, but there’s just something….
I’m all for self-improvement, insofar as I wear clothes that flatter me, moisturize religiously, and rarely leave the house without makeup and earrings, but I personally wouldn’t go as far as surgery, because we’ve seen the evidence that that shit goes wrong, terribly wrong. A haircut is about as much of a commitment to body modification as I’ll usually make. But for some people, it’s not only helpful, it’s necessary.
Wowie! All the comments are just as interesting as the post.
Beauty is such an odd thing. It’s almost philosophical because it’s not tangible, like Freedom or Love or other grand ideals. And it’s funny when people try to describe it in general terms when it’s such a personal thing. Socially accepted beauty may go through its trends, but what each person finds truly beautiful, and why, is unique to that one individual.
I think that’s why so many people respond strongly to the issue. It’s like a discussion about religion or politics!
[...] And then… it all changed. Days were skipped. Daily became thrice-weekly. It was as though my inexhaustable supply of pop culture and nostalgia musings had dried up. Or — could it be possible? — had I stopped caring? Had The Retropolitan ceased to care about which Batman movie had the best-sculpted cowl? Did the question of Unconventional Beauty stop holding my interest? Where have all the cowboys gone?!? [...]